Monday, August 21, 2006

For Doug

I am going to devote a whole post to what Doug had to say in my post on Ms. Mayo's deranged actions on Flight 923 and how other commentators saw the event.

From the 1997 English edition of the Catholic Catechism: Terrorism threatens, wounds, and kills indiscriminately, it is gravely against justice and charity.

Ms. Mayo’s actions gave the other passengers the impression she was a terrorist and they responded to defend themselves. If one looks in the New Testament, lets say Acts Ch. 25, verses 10-12 we see Paul defending himself against false accusations, accusations that would have lead to his death. Or Luke Ch. 22 verses 36-37 where Christ tells His disciples in the future they have to defend themselves, hence mentioning the sword. So the right of self-defense is not forbidden by the New Testament.

Now Doug, lets look at ‘turn the other cheek.’ The full quote is “But I say to you, offer no resistance to one who is evil. When someone strikes you on [your] right cheek, turn the other one to him as well.” Matthew, Ch.5 verse 39.

I have to ask you Doug, are you saying that Ms. Mayo was truly evil and hence the other passengers should not have resisted? Also note this is person to person.

Now lets get to Christian forgiveness. Probably the best known is the Parable of the Unforgiving Servant also found in Matthew, Ch. 18 verses 23-35. In this story the master forgives one servant of a huge debt the servant owes. Then the servant turns on another servant who owes but a pittance to the first servant. The man is so unforgiving he has the servant thrown into jail until the debt is repaid. Upon hearing this, the master was wrought with anger at the first servant, such that after upbraiding the man for being ungrateful has him tossed into jail until the large debt is repaid. And it ends with Christ warning his disciples that unless they forgive their brothers from the heart this too will be their fate.

Please note in this parable, the forgiveness is of a personal nature. It is a person forgiving the one who harmed them with their whole heart. For a person to say they forgive a person who never did harm to them is an empty gesture, of no consequence except to give the person saying ‘I forgive’ an immediate warm fuzzy feeling. So I cannot forgive Ms. Mayo since she never harmed me. Doug, you need to ask the other passengers of that flight to see if they can forgive her.


Anonymous said...

Well Written Anna.

Prior to His crucifixion, Jesus revealed to His disciples the future hostility they would face and encouraged them to sell their outer garments in order to buy a sword (Luke 22:36-38; cf. 2 Corinthians 11:26-27). Here the "sword" (Greek: maxairan) is a dagger or short sword that belonged to the Jewish traveler's equipment as protection against robbers and wild animals. A plain reading of the passage indicates that Jesus approved of self-defense.

Self-defense may actually result in one of the greatest examples of human love. Christ Himself said, "Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends" (John 15:14). When protecting one's family or neighbor, a Christian is unselfishly risking his or her life for the sake of others.


How to choose a self defense class

Mike's America said...

Anna: Your feeding that useful idiot moonbat Doug... You know what happens when you do that?

imdougandirule said...

Hey, Mike's America said I'm useful, how 'bout that?

Anyway, thanks for offering a topic of discussion, Anna. Let me start by saying that I do not believe that the deranged passenger on that flight was evil. I also don't blame the passengers for defending themselves, they couldn't have known she was mentally unstable. Either way, she posed a threat and needed to be restrained. I would have done the same thing. If she had been an actual terrorist, I would not feel so bad for her. Since she was not, I am just surprised by the apparent lack of compassion I have seen in this country for someone who is suffering something most of us will never know, not that we all don't have our own personal issues to deal because everyone does. As to whether the other passengers need to forgive her or not, I guess it depends on whether they are holding a grudge against her for scaring the you-know-what out of them and creating a very, very huge inconvenience for all involved, and where they are with their own beliefs. Some might say that turning the other cheek in the most adverse conditions could be considered the actions of a saint.

On another topic relating ot this post, I have seen a lot of blogs and websites recently that use the term Islamofascists, either implying or outright stating that all Muslims are violent and support an Islamic jihad. The ones that quoted from the Qu'ran only sampled a few quotes and ignored most of the rest. In doing so, I think they have completely overstated the fundamentalism that does indeed exist within the Muslim world. In fact, I looked up the number of Muslims living in the U.S. in 2002 (more recent numbers weren't available). The nymber ranged from 1.3 million to 2.8 million. Out of that number 21 committed a terrorist act against the U.S. If you calculate out the lowest number, 1.3 million, the percentage of actual terrorists who are muslim in the U.S. is 0.0016 X 1%. I will actually have a post on my blog addressing this issue sometime tomorrow, feel free to check it out.

On a final note, you and anonymous both spoke of Jesus telling his disciples to obtain a sword and quoted specific passages. Could it also be inferred by those few passages that Jesus encouraged war and violence with nonbelievers? I would say no, but let's hope nobody takes that out of context.

imdougandirule said...

I guess I should restate that it is not so much the lack of compassion but the seeming enjoyment over the suffering of another that troubles me. I am not accusing you or any of your friends of this, it's more of an observation of what is being portrayed in the msm.

Thank you again , Anna for providing a topic for discussion and on open forum to do so.

Mike's America said...

Still pushing your religious perversions down people's throats hunh Doug? That's compassion is it?

P.S. No one EVER said that ALL Muslims were fascists.

Just as all Germans were not Nazis it was still necessary to defeat the ENTIRE nation to free the non-Nazis along with the rest.

Perhaps you would understand the difference better if you had visited one of the Nazi death camps.

And while I am on the subject: Today's Islamofascism is a scion of the cancer of National Socialism that was imported to the Middle East by the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem. Too bad we didn't finish the job in the 1940's.


imdougandirule said...

So does this mean that you are feeding me now, Mike? Boy, I'm really pushing my religious perversions down peoples' throats. I guess loving thy neighbor, compassion for those less fortunate, peace on earth, all those things that Jesus talked about in the bible are just overrated?

You're right about one thing, I have not visited any death camps yet. I have never even been to Europe, been all over 49 out of 50 states though. I do intend to go to Europe in the next year and will visit Auschwitz while I am there. I will also be visiting my sister who is a consulate at a U.S. Embassy. My reasons for going to see the death camps, as most of the rest of my family already has, is because several (by several, I mean 8 that we know of for sure, and possibly as many as 4 more) members of my family were killed in those camps. There were also a few who survived. So I will thank you not to throw the holocaust or the Nazis in my face if you have not lost what my family has.

Anna said...

Well this is interesting. Thanks RR for your clarification of my somewhat inexact take on that passage along with extending it to a logical conclusion about laying one's life down for another.

Mike, well this was the first time saw this attempt to move the goalpost on my blog and decided to use J-bolts and Quikcrete to secure the goalpost. Looks like did not succeed very well. C'est la vie.

Doug, I am confused. Considering your family history in regards the Shaoh I would think you would be wanting a more vocal Christianity expressing opposition towards what is wrong in the world. Or am I mistaken? Or are you saying you prefer people like Willi Graf to remain mute? In fact by your definition of what Christianity is, Jesus kicking the money lenders from the Temple was wrong. Some clarification is in order I think. Thanks.

imdougandirule said...

Are you comparing yourself to Willi Graf? If so, you are way out of line. And not even close. Graf spoke up against the ruling war machine party of Germany aka the Nazis. The Nazis demonized the Jews through well worded and well placed propaganda. This propaganda was not based on fact rather it was forged evidence. Using racist stereotypes and intentionally misinterpreting passages in the Torah, they were able to effectively demonize the Jews to everyone else and thus begin the rounding up of them and leading to the holocaust. The German people wanted a scapegoat for their problems and the Jews were an easy target.

The rest of the world conveniently ignored what was going on thinking that it was not as bad as what was being told. The church, the European Allies, the Russians, and the United States all turned their back on the Jews (my family included) who were begging for help. So, sorry if your current (little late, but thanks anyway)blind support for the policies and actions of Israel doesn't warm my heart.

By the way, Hitler had a 98% approval rating in 1938 in the last election in Germany before the end of WWII.

You seem open to many ideas except that perhaps the neo-con agenda involves lying to the masses to drum up support. There is propaganda on all of your friends websites/blogs demonizing Muslims, misinterpreting (or just making up stuff about) the Qu'ran (if they have even read any part of it), and spouting random nonsense about the war based on nothing factual, but the rantings on other right-wing blogs. It's time to turn off Fox News and read.

Again, thank you for providing an open forum. I'm afraid this will be my last comment on this particular blog as I am beginning to feel as though this were a joke to bait me into an argument. Please don't throw the holocaust in my face again. Any of you.

Mike's America said...

Doug: Did you get permission from your mother to send that?

"The Nazis demonized the Jews through well worded and well placed propaganda. This propaganda was not based on fact rather it was forged evidence."

And you want to attribute these same characteristics to those on the right? I thought for sure you must be talking about CBS News and other left wing fascists trying to skew a presidential election with their fakery and Michael Moore "documentaries."

In my professional opinion... and yes, I do have the qualification here, I would say: "methinks thou dost project too much."

You're delusions about what is really happening here are approaching a pathology.

The American people, in their wisdom, have gone through all the issues which you cling to as some sort of peace fascist. And we have decided over the course of several elections to pursue the path we are currently on.

You've lost, we won, the issue has been decided.

I understand it would be too much to ask that you unite with your countrymen in the common objective of victory over an evil that is drawing closer and closer. But is it too much to ask that you cease with your tiresome, self-righteous, poorly formed, mealy-mouthed gibberish?

You live in a blue state of mind bubble where you are unable to either comprehend or connect with any other reality than that peace fascist nonsense which simply disqualifies you from making any serious contribution to the much needed discussion of what truly are life and death issues.

You continue to embarrass yourself each time you comment.

Anna said...

Doug, if I have given offense then I am sorry. But as far as I know, all I asked was for you to clarify your statements so I could understand where you are coming from.

On the one hand you want Willi Graf and others of the White Rose to denounce Nazi tyranny while wondering why others did not do more. But here in 2006 when Christians dare to take a stance against modern wrong-doing ne evil, your response has been to be quiet. At least that is how I am understanding your statements. Hence my request for clarification.

I never compared myself to Willi Graf, you attempted to put those words into my mouth. That is dishonest and calls into question your integrity.

You can attempt to wrap the blanket of related victimhood around you to deflect such questions. But it will not work. My grandfather and one of my Dad's cousins both fought across Europe liberating France, the Low Countries, and finally Germany from Nazi tyranny. But I do not bring them into any of my discussions to shield myself. I figure I am adult enough to weather any criticism on my own, and if I am in error to be mature enough to learn from my mistake.

You can storm off in high dungeon Doug, but it will be by your chosing. If you care to discuss things more in a rational manner, please stop by. Until then Doug, l'chaim.

imdougandirule said...

I merely asked if you were comparing yourself to Willi Graf, and if so to let you know that you are out of line for doing so. I think I have clarified my self enough though. If you do not still understand where I am coming from, I don't know how much more I can say to explain. I won't even dignify Mike's comment with a response as he has now banned me from commenting on his blog even though he came to mine before I ever even knew who he was and started calling me names. It's always funny to me to see just how hypocritical some people are - people like Mike can dish it out but they sure can't take it, and he calls me a child. Actions speak louder than words.

Anna, I appreciate your desire to understand my point of view as I try to understand yours. I'd like to continue the discussion and hopefully we can both learn a little something.

Mike's America said...

" we can both learn a little something."

Oh, that's rich!

Anna, I'm bored with this moonbat. He's getting stale.

Anna said...

Mike, ehhh. I kept hoping I would get clarification but it was not to be. Francesa, niece of Fresco da Celatico, in the Decameron would be a more soothing partner in converstation.